Posts by zen nudist

18

The resurrection of Jesus Christ

by enquirer in

hello, this is my first post.

i hope i will receive some answers to my question.

the lord jesus christ rose from the dead to die no more.

zen nudist

JWs have a very real blindspot when it comes to ressurection.... they are told by the GB that when a person dies, its over, they no longer exist in any way shape or form, but only as a memory in the mind of God.... no soul, as the soul is the entire living person and is as dead as the deased... no spirit, as the spirit is just a force that keeps one alive like electricity, it has no personality no memories, no consciousness...etc.

this presents a real problem which JWs fail to see....they assume a continuity between the once living and the ressurected person... yet they have no theory, nor mechanism to account for this continuity. the only thing that the raised person has is the pattern and memories of the original...and there is nothing that make it more than a COPY....

consider this... since pattern and memory are both data stored in the mind of God and God could, if he wanted to, use that pattern to make the very copy of you right this moment, there is nothing that makes that new person you... nothing that links its consciousness with your own, you KNOW it is not you...because YOU are over here and he is over there.... so by what magic does it become you just because you die? if it exists prior to your death, you will not magically become that one when you die....so why would you become that one if he is made after you? there is no fundamental difference...nothing linking the new consciousness to the old at all....the old person is dead and the new one is not him.

taking this to an extreme, you are not the same person who went to bed last night, he is part of the dead past and you are a new collection of matter and energy... what links you to that one? why are you condemned for his sins? if there is no soul or spirit which is the real person, the consciousness that experiences all things, then we are just robots and there is no reason to condemn the current configuration of matter and energy for what a past configuration did, as a simple update can fix that.

so who rose from the dead? if Jesus was a real human being who died.... and god invented a spirit being out of the ashes, its not even the same pattern of matter and energy, it could have the same memories, but so what? why is this new invented being Jesus? why should it be granted godhood for what his clone donor did?

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

zen nudist

Num 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

God never changes right? God is not a man nor his he THE SON OF MAN

18

what is the first lie in the bible and who told it?

by zen nudist in

gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

gen 3:4 and the serpent said unto the woman, ye shall not surely die: [from eating of the tree].

gen 3:5 for god doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

zen nudist

In the devils coniving confabulation with Eve he spoke 54 words.
Only 5 were lies," you positively will not die".

but see that is where this began, that was NOT a lie...in context, he said that they would NOT die from eating from the tree of knowledge, not that they would never die...I hasten to point out that eternal life was never promised to Adam or Eve anywhere and that Adam died of old age, and being prevented from eating of the tree of life, not from eating of the tree of knowledge...so the serpent was correct.... the fact is that Adam was allowed to die of old age because he did not believe God when he told him he would die from eating of the tree of knowledge... which turned out to be the only lie in the story.

most of, myself included, focused on the fact that Adam died by being disobedient.... but infact I just realized as I just mentioned that was not the case...it was not a case of obedience because God essential gave him a warning, not a law...a warning which turned out to be false....and when god saw that man would understand it as false, he then prevented men from living forever...even though admitting they still could.

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

zen nudist

Zen Nudist claimed that the Bible does not teach that God is omnipresent, but here are just a few Verses that do indeed teach that: Psalm 139: 7-10: Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, Even there Your hand shall lead me, And Your right hand shall hold me.

which of course contradicts genesis 18:20-21 where God clearly is NOT in sodom and Gomorrah, but that is no suprize as the bible is riddled with such contradictions and believers have many word tricks they can use to make it say whatever they wish it to say... its also not suprizing that people would make their god as great as they can imagine him to be, as there really is no god that anyone has ever found other than all of us together, people can claim he or she or they are whatever they wish.

as to the specific verse, like so many others, the alternative is that God can be anywhere he wishes and that by his proxies, the angels as he is shown to do in many cases which are reported as God being there himself.... that God is omnipresent, being contradicted by many verses, it seems the more likely view, assuming a god exists at all, is the view that he can be any place he wishes by means of angels but is himself in one location, heaven.

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

zen nudist

These verses only become a denial that Jesus is not also God (in addition to being man) if one or more of the following assumptions (which I believe are faulty) are held:

1. That the one God can only be in one place at a time.

assuming God is real, why assume more than anything written about him? there is nothing in the bible which says that God can be in more than one place at any time, other than by means of angels...which rove about the earth acting as the eyes of God, mentioned in several places.-- if God could be more than one place at a time, why mention these angelic "eyes"

2. That the one God must also exist as a unipersonal being. Thus if the person of the Father is called God then no one else with him can also be the same God (the asumption of unitarianism).

when the bible says before ME there was no god formed and after ME there continued to be none, I, I alone am God... that is in context with all the false gods, but it is also in the singular...it does not say WE or US as if there were more than one PERSON as the main GOD.... trinitarians claim 3 who's and 1 what...but clearly there is only ONE who which is seen as THE GOD and while the heavenly court, the beni-elohim are also called gods, it is always understood by jews that they are part of GOD's group apart from the false gods and only one of the Elohim, YHWH is THE BOSS, the main guy, etc.

3. That Jesus must exist in only one nature. Thus verses which show him to be a man by nature, prove then He cannot also be God by nature (the assumption that Christ must have only one nature.)

the arguement of natures is not something anyone can really say much about, but it does say that Jesus, prior to coming to earth, was the same as God [and the angels] in being a spirit entity of some sort [phil 2] but that when he came to earth he EMPTIED himself of that nature and took on the nature of a servant...and where else does it say otherwise, where does it say he has two natures at the same time?

4. That even if it is hypothetically possible for Christ to have more then one nature, that He must always be called by titles for each nature, in the same passages. Thus verses which show him to be called by human terms such as "Son of Man", are an argument against him also being God since He is not also called God (or an equivalent) in these same passages (the assumption of the argument from silence regarding titles).

As to titles, there is never one instance where Jesus and God are spoken of together as equals that I am aware....the FATHER is always seen as God in relationship to Jesus...and Jesus even calls him MY God and Your God....so who is Your God? is it the same ONE who is the God of Jesus, or someone else? Paul says to US there is only ONE God, the FATHER. [1 cor 8:5-6] and never does he say as clearly anything like that about any other god[s] nor does he ever say Jesus is our God...does he?

44

NIV vs NWT

by azaria in

im here for just a few minutes to post this.

i will try to come back later this evening.

niv titus 2:11-14 for the grace of god that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

zen nudist

Which is what at least some would say regarding you. You miss the point. Person A says "I know I have truth". Person B says "I know I have truth". Their "truths" are different.
One is right or both are wrong. Both believe as fervently. Both will wave scriptures at you. How can I tell that YOU are not the one deceived by Satan? You defend yourself in a way that is indistinguishable in terms of verifiability from the way people YOU say are deceived by Satan defend themselves.
Surely the most efficient servant of Satan is one who doesn't know he's serving him?

here is the primary lie--- I KNOW I HAVE THE TRUTH.... proclaiming ones personal faith and belief as FACT is self deception at best, an out right lie at worst.

we all have experiences and with a bit of imagination, anyone can come up with at least 3 different possibilities that explain them... to dogmatically jump upon one and only one possibility is what most seem quite determined to do, but that does not show means to the truth, but only a lack of imagination and a quick road to self deceptions. most people tell me they KNOW in their HEART, but ignore that the bible in Jeremiah, says that the heart is wicked and deseperate and not to be trusted, that Proverbs warns that there exists a way that seems right to a man, but it is the way to death, etc.

I did past life regression, I experienced what seems like memories from previous lives...but were they? I have no means to verify them. yet one of them showed me something of history I had no clue about prior. so does that prove it was real? no, it proves nothing actually as there are still many other possibilities... 1. I read or heard about this history and forgot. 2. I have tapped into some universal memory. 3. its just a coincidence without any real meaning, 4. I am god and insane and hallucinating everything.

7

COMMA JOHANNEUM(1 JOHN 5;7)

by badboy in

.

`this phrase,which evidently was inserted several centuries after john wrote the letter'.. this was in the latest wt april 15 or was it the awake!.

i understand that the comma johanneum wasn't in manuscripts prior to the 16th century.. the wt obviously doesn't check it facts..

zen nudist

Pick the one that is not the trinitarian choice.

none of them show any trinity of God, all of them show a trinity of witness...they are ONE not in being God, but in agreement about the testimony their bear...show me where it says they are ONE in any other way.

7

COMMA JOHANNEUM(1 JOHN 5;7)

by badboy in

.

`this phrase,which evidently was inserted several centuries after john wrote the letter'.. this was in the latest wt april 15 or was it the awake!.

i understand that the comma johanneum wasn't in manuscripts prior to the 16th century.. the wt obviously doesn't check it facts..

zen nudist

That is sorta not true some bibles add absolute proof of the trinity you are citing the actual text. That part is not what was "added".

the part which people say was added says nothing about God.... it only states that three "witnesses" are one [in the witness they bare]

44

NIV vs NWT

by azaria in

im here for just a few minutes to post this.

i will try to come back later this evening.

niv titus 2:11-14 for the grace of god that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

zen nudist

do not forget www.blueletterbible.org many translations and even original langauge fonts and words, strongs and other concordances, etc.

16

Doctrine or Scripture?

by kibizzle in

my h and i are generally good at avoiding the subject, but the other day we got into a "debate" about the "truth".

anyway, he gave a few reasons why he believes the jws have the "truth" such as the scripture that says "it is better to not have known the truth at all than have known the truth and walked away".

okay, at the time i was too upset to think rationally and say, "okay, which scripture would that be?

zen nudist

When the Ex and I first left...we wondered about similar things...but I realized, 1. I can only be walking away from God, if JWs truely represented God, and the evidence for that was growing slim...to none. 2. all those verse which apply to those who had the truth and left and should be shunned, etc. can only be applied to those who claim to be inspired and infallible, something the WTS never did, which means by their own admission they could be very very wrong and there is nothing dishonest nor immoral for anyone who is a JW to conclude that JWs do not represent THE TRUTH and with geninue doubt and honest ignorance, leave.

I concluded that I honestly cannot tell: 1. if the bible god exists. 2. if JWs represent him if he did exist. 3. that I would care one way or the other now, after coming to see the bible god as a monster by his own laws and standards and not worthy of love nor respect.